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Immigration Forum / USA Marriage Base / September 2006Howto get rid of your old nationality's passport when become a US Citizen?
Hi There, Does anybody know how to get rid of your old nationality passport when you become a US Citizen WITHOUT sending it to the Embassy? Can you hand-in your passport when you attend the swearing ceremony to the judge and ask him to give you a receipt? Is there any other way? Thank You, Shahrokh22  Signatures. Hafizi Posted via http://britishexpats.com > Hi There, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Shahrokh22 Why do you have to get rid of it? Why not just let it expire? Rene > Hi There, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Shahrokh22 Don't think the judge'll be interested somehow. Does your current nationality preclude dual citizenship? > Don't think the judge'll be interested somehow. > > Does your current nationality preclude dual citizenship? Go to the Embassy (or send in your passport) of your birth and renounce your citizenship. > Hi There, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Shahrokh22 Hi: My reaction is "why do you care?" I will say that the people at the swearing in don't care -- its not their problem. So, the question comes up --"Why do you ask?" SignatureCertified Specialist Immigration & Nat. Law Cal. Bar Board of Legal Specialization > Hi There, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Shahrokh22 Why do you wish to do that? SignatureI'm not an attorney. This disclaimer is valid in NYS! > Hi There, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Shahrokh22 I can't think of any other way. The passport is the property of your native country's government, so if you don't plan on keeping it then you need to return it to them. The easiest way to do that is to send it to the Embassy. ~ Jenney > Hi There, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Shahrokh22 Just curious - why do you want to avoid giving up your passport or citizenship the regular way that your embassy would require? > Just curious - why do you want to avoid giving up your passport or > citizenship the regular way that your embassy would require? Maybe he is wanted by his government for some action that would demand his incarceration. SignatureI'm not an attorney. This disclaimer is valid in NYS! Ideas: Flush it down the toilet Put it in a mixer ... > > Hi There, > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Just curious - why do you want to avoid giving up your passport or > citizenship the regular way that your embassy would require? > Ideas: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > -- > > Posted via http://britishexpats.com Can't you just let it expire? Passport, that is... > Can't you just let it expire? Passport, that is... Trash Shredder Or you could recycle? > Trash > > Shredder > > Or you could recycle? So why do not my comments meet the requirement? Shahrokh, Is there a (black) market for passports from your country? Alternatively, maybe e-Bay. Regards, JEff > Hi There, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Shahrokh22 > Hi There, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Shahrokh22 Hi Everybody, This is so surprising to me. Most of you people live in the states and some of you are US Citizen by birth and still you do not have any idea that one of the largest industries in the United States is the Defense Industry and in order to join it you need to surrender your passport (normally to your country of birth embassy) but you dont have to renounce your citizenship if you obtained it by birth. My wife will have her Master of Science in Computer Information Systems in 7 months and hopefully she will have her Citizenship certificate by then and she will start looking for work in the defense industry (beginning with where I work). She needs to surrender her passport but Iran's Embassy does not accept passports to be surrendered anymore. And we cannot let it expire, since it will take a long time. We are looking for a way for my wife to get rid of her passport (and get a receipt from a legal authority) before she attends a job interview (before she has to fill out a security clearance form). Can she surrender her passport to the judge at her swearing ceremony? Is there any other authority that she can surrender her passport to? Signatures. Hafizi Posted via http://britishexpats.com > Hi Everybody, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Can she surrender her passport to the judge at her swearing ceremony? > Is there any other authority that she can surrender her passport to? Write an affidavit that you put it through the shredder/flushed it down the toilet/burnt it in the barbecue/posted it to the embassy in Washington. Sign it with a witnessing notary. > Write an affidavit that you put it through the shredder/flushed it > down the toilet/burnt it in the barbecue/posted it to the embassy in > Washington. Sign it with a witnessing notary. Thanks for your suggestion. I think we have to sign an affidavit, in case we could not convince the judge to help us with it. Signatures. Hafizi Posted via http://britishexpats.com > Thanks for your suggestion. I think we have to sign an affidavit, in > case we could not convince the judge to help us with it. Why would an American judge want your passport? > Why would an American judge want your passport? I never said that a judge WANTS anybody's passport. Read the question again, please. Signatures. Hafizi Posted via http://britishexpats.com > I never said that a judge WANTS anybody's passport. Read the question > again, please. I know what youre asking, but I'm saying.. why would an AMERICAN judge have ANY interest in taking your foreign passport and doing anything with it? Its your responsibility to deal with that stuff yourself > Hi Everybody, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Can she surrender her passport to the judge at her swearing ceremony? > Is there any other authority that she can surrender her passport to? Hi: Thank you for clarifying the question. You have now given a reason why she is interested. I still don't believe that the presiding officer at the swearing in will take it. [BTW, note I did not say "judge" -- the administration of the oath by Judges is not generally done, with Los Angeles being an exception. A long story]. You might want to contact the Department of Defense [I don't know who] and inquire. As a weird "out of the box" thought, she might want to file a delcaratory relief action naming DOD as defendant that she is not an Iranian citizen or perhaps an action in the "Nature of Interpleader" naming Iran as a party. NOTE: the above paragraph is NOT "legal advice" -- just some idle, albeit educated, speculation. Interesting question. SignatureCertified Specialist Immigration & Nat. Law Cal. Bar Board of Legal Specialization > Hi: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Interesting question. Hi Folin, I almost missed your reply since it was on the second page. I think what you said is the most proper approach. I have to contact the DOD (DSS in fact) and ask them about this. Thanks for the tip. Sincerely Yours, Shahrokh Signatures. Hafizi Posted via http://britishexpats.com > Hi Everybody, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Can she surrender her passport to the judge at her swearing ceremony? > Is there any other authority that she can surrender her passport to? This is quite interesting. I am a UK citizen by birth, a naturalized Canadian, and a naturalized US citizen. Are you suggesting that I would be expected to return my UK passport but maintain my UK citizenship, and that I would have to return my CDN passport *and* renounce my Canadian citizenship in order to work at the DoD? Wow... that's a bit harsh, eh? Ian > This is quite interesting. I am a UK citizen by birth, a naturalized > Canadian, and a naturalized US citizen. Are you suggesting that I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ian Hi Ian, If you need to obtain a security clearance, ABSOLUTELY. Signatures. Hafizi Posted via http://britishexpats.com > Hi Ian, > > If you need to obtain a security clearance, ABSOLUTELY. Y'see... this is why I love this forum. Every day I learn new things! Ian > Hi Ian, > > If you need to obtain a security clearance, ABSOLUTELY. doing so might not be enough to get security clearance though, or any decent level if you still have ties to your old home country such as relatives, friends, property etc... > Hi Ian, > > If you need to obtain a security clearance, ABSOLUTELY. Unless things have recently been changed, this is not true. My Canadian, now American husband, worked for the US Department of Defense in the 1960's and he is high clearance from both the Canadian and US Governments. He was not asked to surrender his Canadian passport. He also at the moment has high security clearance with the US Army, he is a Major, as maintains the communications for both the National and State Guard in lower New York State. He has retained both his US and Canadian passports. SignatureI'm not an attorney. This disclaimer is valid in NYS! >> Hi Ian, >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > State Guard in lower New York State. He has retained both his US and > Canadian passports. It may depend on one's country of birth. I'm not surprised a Canadian citizen could obtain a US security clearance (it's common for "friendly" foreign nationals to be "read on" to various programs). I personally knew 2 people originally from Russia who could not get clearances even though they were US citizens. I suspect if an agency wants a particular person and has the power to get the "ticket" almost anything is possible. > Hi Everybody, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Can she surrender her passport to the judge at her swearing ceremony? > Is there any other authority that she can surrender her passport to? Wow what an elitist attitude you have there. For the most part few American citizens apply for positions within the US Defense Industry and therefore would be unfamiliar with the placement criteria. Also I just thought of this in regards to my other post, my former son-in- law had to obtain security clearance for his computer position in the US Government in DC. He was not asked to return his Israeli passport nor his Russian passport. SignatureI'm not an attorney. This disclaimer is valid in NYS! > Wow what an elitist attitude you have there. For the most part few > American citizens apply for positions within the US Defense Industry [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > US Government in DC. He was not asked to return his Israeli passport > nor his Russian passport. By any standard, this is IMPRACTICAL. Then why even bother with a clearance if you can keep multiple passports. Maybe your former son-in-law did not have a clearance. If you try to define the clearance, you will realise that it is impossible to have more than one passport (you can only have a US Passport), since it contradicts the US DOD law. Please read the security clearance guidelines in this site: http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/security/blforeignpref.htm Signatures. Hafizi Posted via http://britishexpats.com > By any standard, this is IMPRACTICAL. Then why even bother with a > clearance if you can keep multiple passports. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/security/blforeignpref.htm This is not definitive. In the first place, the words "could" and "will" are not interchangeable, so something that *could* be detrimental to your application may not necessarily *be* detrimental. Besides, this is not an official US government web site, so they can pretty much say what they want. Could you supply something from a more official site? Ian > This is not definitive. In the first place, the words "could" and > "will" are not interchangeable, so something that *could* be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ian Hi Again Ian, Here is the official Defense Security Service (DSS) site: You can look at all their cases from 1996 to present, some cases include laws and regulations related to DOD. http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/doha/industrial/ Signatures. Hafizi Posted via http://britishexpats.com >> Hi There, >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Can she surrender her passport to the judge at her swearing ceremony? Is > there any other authority that she can surrender her passport to? It seems odd that she could suddenly become eligible for "defense" jobs simply by getting rid of her Iranian passport. In any application, particularly if she intends to obtain a security clearance, I would expect she will be asked if she is a citizen of another country (or it will eventually come up in the investigation) and this will determine in large part whether or not she can be granted a clearance, not the physical possession of the passport. It could depend on the clearance and agency involved. > >> Hi There, > >> Does anybody know how to get rid of your old nationality passport [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > physical possession of the passport. It could depend on the clearance > and agency involved. Hi L D, Your are correct. But that is a part of a greater qualification process (it is one of many conditions). But you do not have to renounce your old citizenship , if you obtained the citizenship by birth as long as you do not claim dual citizenship and do not own/use another passport (I went through this process when I received my clearance). Signatures. Hafizi Posted via http://britishexpats.com > Hi L D, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > another passport (I went through this process when I received my > clearance). That still makes no sense whatsoever. Just because one no longer holds a valid useable passport from another country does not mean that they cannot obtain just that by applying at their country's Consulate or leaving the US with their US passport and obtaining it in person in the other country. Security is about one's alliances to the US and their trustworthiness. It would make sense that the dual citizen be asked to official renounce their citizenship in a country considered a threat to the US defense system and the US population in general. SignatureI'm not an attorney. This disclaimer is valid in NYS! > That still makes no sense whatsoever. Just because one no longer > holds a valid useable passport from another country does not mean that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > renounce their citizenship in a country considered a threat to the US > defense system and the US population in general. You may be right on this issue. But the law does not require any dual citizen whether from a friendly country or hostile to officially renounce their original citizenship (you can find that on the DSS website I posted before, Guidelines A, B and C). Especially since the United States is looking for many more engineers ans scientists (there are less US citizen engineers than non-citizens). I am originally from Iran and I was not required to renounce my Iranian citizenship when DSS granted me a clearance. Signatures. Hafizi Posted via http://britishexpats.com > Hi L D, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > another passport (I went through this process when I received my > clearance). Maybe if you had provided more details in your initial post, you would have received responses that wouldn't have surprised you so much. It wasn't until your second post that you even mentioned the DOD, or that the Iranian government no longer accepts Iranian passports. In any case, most native-born American citizens have no reason to know that naturalized citizens need to surrender their foreign passports in order to get DOD clearance. So why are you surprised that people are unaware of something that they probably would never need to know except in extremely limited circumstances? If you don't renounce your original citizenship, how can you NOT be claiming dual citizenship? By not renouncing your original citizenship, don't you automatically have dual citizenship? (Depending on the country, of course) How can you have one without the other?? ~ Jenney > Maybe if you had provided more details in your initial post, you would > have received responses that wouldn't have surprised you so much. It [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > ~ Jenney Hi Jenny, You are right. I forgot to mention it in my first posting. I apologize. But I do not think that it can be called "extremely limited circumstances" or maybe it is in this forum. These days many of the US companies are tied to defense contracts. But as I said, it is possible that not many people in this forum are familiar with the concept of security clearance since they do not work in a related firm. regardinh dual citizenship claim, I meant on the clearance form as long as you do not claim dual citizenship, it is acceptable. BTW, like anywhere else, there are many funny laws in the US too. State Deprtment allows US citizens to have two passports and use them both, but Department of Defense does not permit that. In other words, as long as you're not working in a defense related firm, you are OK. Signatures. Hafizi Posted via http://britishexpats.com > Hi Jenny, > You are right. I forgot to mention it in my first posting. I [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > both, but Department of Defense does not permit that. In other words, > as long as you're not working in a defense related firm, you are OK. Most of the people on this forum are through marriage or work. I have never seen anybody post about the need to renounce ones original citizenship to obtain employment. I have seen the need to be have a GC (Post Office) or Citizenship (Security Classified jobs) A Passport can always be replaced, I have just applied for one, 2 weeks wait I am told. Whilst having a fairly low opinion of security issues, certainly as practised in the US, I find it difficult to believe that non possesion of a Passport makes you suddenly eligible. > Most of the people on this forum are through marriage or work. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > practised in the US, I find it difficult to believe that non possesion > of a Passport makes you suddenly eligible. I would just assume that he knows what he's talking about. These issues are extremely specific to the exact agency involved, the project involved, the citizenships involved, and the type of management exercised over the project. Various things can be required: a) gain US citizenship; b) get rid of foreign passport; c) renounce foreign citizenship; d) maintain foreign citizenship and passport; e) some combination of the above. He should however make sure that the rulebook he is reading is the one specific to his work and the people he works for, as well as being aware that simply doing what is requested is not a guarantee of gaining a clearance. > > Hi L D, > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > don't you automatically have dual citizenship? (Depending on the > country, of course) How can you have one without the other?? It's correct that if a person doesn't renounce a second citizenship and if that country still views him as being one of its citizens, then he is automatically a dual citizen, whether he acknowledges that other citizenship or not. Keep in mind that in some cases, dual citizens may not be allowed (by the laws or policies of the other country) to give up the other citizenship. But, for the purposes of government security clearance issues, a dual US/other citizen may not be absolutely required to actually give up the other citizenship IF he can show that he never took any active steps to obtain that citizenship (ie. it was obtained through the automatic operation of the other country's laws, or through the actions of another person) and he can show that since becoming a US citizen he hasn't tried to make use of it - such as by travelling on a passport from that country or performing some other action that would only be allowed by citizens of that other country, and that he'd be willing to formally renounce the other citizenship if that action is allowed. > > Hi There, > > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Can she surrender her passport to the judge at her swearing ceremony? No. They'll take her green card, but they won't expect or accept her passport when she becomes a US citizen. As I understand, Iranian law does not make it easy for a person to give up Iranian citizenship. It's allowed by law but, in actuality, requests to give up citizenship often go unacknowledged. Additionally, your wife may find that even if she is absolutely willing to turn in her Iranian passport once she becomes a US citizen, she may be prevented from obtaining a US security clearance if she has any close relatives who live in Iran or elsewhere outside the US, or who are still non-US citizens. The government's policy is to make sure that a person to whom they grant clearance will not make a decision that is more favorable towards a foreign country than to the US, and they feel that persons with close relatives who are citizens or residents of foreign countries may be influenced by that fact, either directly or indirectly. Of course, the guys who work in the finance industry spend their lives in that field and end up feeling that it's the greatest industry out there. (how else would the world survise if companies couldn't finance themselves) Of course, the guys who work in the farming industry spend their lives in that field and end up feeling that it's the greatest industry out there. (how else could people survive without the food we produce) Of course, the guys who work in the defense industry spend their lives in that field and end up feeling that it's the greatest industry out there. (what else could it be after all the money Bush spends) Of course, the guys who breed butterflies .... > > > Hi There, > > > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > residents of foreign countries may be influenced by that fact, either > directly or indirectly. > Of course, the guys who work in the finance industry spend their lives > in that field and end up feeling that it's the greatest industry out [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > > either > > directly or indirectly. But there is a big difference between the meanings of "Greatest" and "Largest". Signatures. Hafizi Posted via http://britishexpats.com > But there is a big difference between the meanings of "Greatest" and > "Largest". Being a British citizen who was formerly married to a person with a high security clearance, whilst he was active duty abroad, and then later working in the defence industry requiring the same clearance I can tell you that it doesn't matter what all the written rules say about foreign passports on any website. You need to go and talk to the security officer that handles the firm your wife is going to be working for. It is going to depend on the project she is working on, the skills she has and the clearance required. Each case is handled individually, and the security officer will tell you exactly what she needs to do and the possibilities. Depending on the level of the project, if background checks cannot be done on close family members it doesn't matter if you get up on CNN and denounce your former country, you won't get a high clearance. Secret will probably be the most. I have a very funny story about US officials going through my parents and my sisters trash, but thats for another time. Incidentally, I hold a green card, but as a foreign national I could never visit my ex-husband's civilian office. The furthest I could go was the firms parking lot :( Anway, to summarise, the key is talking to the firm's security officer and getting precise instructions from him/her. Andrea > Being a British citizen who was formerly married to a person with a > high security clearance, whilst he was active duty abroad, and then [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Andrea Thanks for your sugesstion. As a matter of fact I did what you just said a few days ago and the security office told me not to worry about it. They explained the process to me and they said that they can destroy the passport and issue a confirmation letter. I need to thank you, Rene and Folinskyinla, since your suggestions were the most logical ones. Signatures. Hafizi Posted via http://britishexpats.com > Thanks for your sugesstion. As a matter of fact I did what you just > said a few days ago and the security office told me not to worry about > it. They explained the process to me and they said that they can > destroy the passport and issue a confirmation letter. > I need to thank you, Rene and Folinskyinla, since your suggestions > were the most logical ones. How do they track whether you just got another one? Just renewed mine, took 9 days from sending the old one to the new one arriving. > How do they track whether you just got another one? > > Just renewed mine, took 9 days from sending the old one to the new one > arriving. From what I understand, it's extremely difficult to get a renewed Iranian passport if you don't have the original one to give back to them. Sadegh was in a situation like this, and it took him 18 months to get a replacement. Rene > From what I understand, it's extremely difficult to get a renewed > Iranian passport if you don't have the original one to give back to > them. Sadegh was in a situation like this, and it took him 18 months > to get a replacement. > > Rene So its just an issue for Iranians? > So its just an issue for Iranians? Iran and USA are the only countries I have experience with....I don't know about any other countries. :) Rene > How do they track whether you just got another one? > > Just renewed mine, took 9 days from sending the old one to the new one > arriving. Its for security clearance. You just don't ever try anything dodgy when you're going for security clearance or you can never get clearance again, and therefore your job options are limited. Depending on the level you have, they go through your trash, interview your family and friends, old employers, your doctor, your neighbours, have people watch you in your social gatherings. You sent your passport in the mail? They would know. You visited a consulate? They would know. Andrea (wrapping tin foil on her head) |
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